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2004-07-15 [BarleySinger]: This is why I brought up Andrew killing Jonathon. There are a lot of unstable people in the world who write themselves into stories, and you can never tell for sure which ones are going to be dangerous. Its easy to write people like this off as "nerds" or "geeks" instead of viewing them as damaged people. Many collect swords and knives and some collect guns. Sure, you can guess that the ones who drink peoples blood and claim to be vampires are disturbed, but exactly how disturbed (or dangerous) are the ones who believe they are elves?
2004-07-16 [Morrigon]: true. very true. its kind of scary and pathetic at the same time ugh.
2004-07-16 [Rondel]: That pretty much sums it up, yes...
2004-07-16 [BarleySinger]: Yes it is. I spent some time in the world of "fandom" while recovering from my parents extremeist fundamentalism
2004-07-17 [Morrigon]: you know. i dont want to know in the least. thats terrible. ehehhe
2004-07-17 [BarleySinger]: Part of the problem here is that a lot of the people involved have no common sense and no boundaries. The were raised to accept things that nobody should. Most people understand that when you first meet a person they are not "your best friend with whom you share everything", but in this case, these people will often tell you everything about them...private stuff...in the first few seconds of meeting you (thats a boundary problem). They often don't get the idea of how friendships develop over time, from acquaintance and "play mate" to "friend" and then "deep friendship", and also don't get the idea that "not everyone who accepts you is going to be your best friend".
2004-07-17 [BarleySinger]: Many people who are abused / neglected end up "stuck" emotionally and/or socially at earlier ages. In this case, think of how kids make friends (especially youg kids). If you play with them then yu are their friend. If you do somthing they don't like, they "hate you". These are people who very often have "personality disorders". which often are accomanied by being emotionally/so
2004-07-18 [Morrigon]: very very true. (sorry I cant say anything to add to that) hehe you've said it all.
2004-07-19 [BarleySinger]: To use another TV example, in "Angel" angels kid grew up without a family. He was willing, even though he could see through its spells, to go along with "the evil" that had taken over the world. TO allow people to be eaten by it, because it game him a sense of belonging and a family. A lot of people who never bonded to a family are willing to do most anything to get that feeling of being loved and accepted, even if it is a fake one. They don't even really know what is missing in many cases. They just have a "missing bit" a "hole" where the unqualified love of good parents is supposed to fit. They run around looking for people, relationships,
2004-07-19 [BarleySinger]: "accept them" because they never got that message of validation from their parents. Some of the more "cult like" groups in fandom, are filled with people who want to believe that the other members of their group (who don't know anything about them), are all their "instant friends" (just add hot water)...their special family. And they are willing to overlook just about anything to maintain that illusion. They will even accept that "Joe is a vampire and Jenny is a fairy", if it helps them maintain their illusion.
2004-07-19 [Rondel]: Eep. I just went from reading this wiki to a contest I've been creating an entry for, and was somewhat aghast. If you pop over to Morbid Fae Contest, you may see what I mean, in the last page or two of comments (starting right after my own comment, when the succubus image was submitted).
2004-07-19 [BarleySinger]: sacre merde! These people are talking about their "knowledge of faeries" as if they were real things!!! I hope they know that they are spouting mystic bullshit. I've known people who did not know that it was a load of horse apples, at least not all of the time.
2004-07-20 [Morrigon]: ACK. craziness. well what about unicorns? i kind of think that they could have possibly existed considering there have been cases of things like that today. maybe it was just the same only a long time ago and people made a bigger deal about it...sorry, way of subject...
2004-07-22 [BarleySinger]: There are a number of different "unicorn" myths. The oldest Greek ones described a "kid" goat. The Roman myths described a composite animal with the legs of an antelope and the head of a lion. The medieval myths do a very good job (a white beast the size of a horse with legs like an elephants and a curved horn) of describing a rhino.
2004-07-22 [Morrigon]: hahah its terrible sometimes. well humans throughout the ages have been dramatic. i'm just talking about the classic, horse with a horn in the middle of its forhead. its probably very likely a few of them existed
2004-07-22 [BarleySinger]: Believe it or not, I am currently in a conversation in an elftown wiki Morbid Fae Contest, in which I am being told "Yeah! Who are you, Barley, to say what truely(sic) exists and what doesn't? "...the people on the Wiki were talking all about how "fairies are real" and how they can attack you in the night (quoting everything from relatives, to books (fiction) to movies and myths). I said that fairies are imaginary, quoting several dictionaries, and for some reason they have not taken well to the idea of being told that faeries are not real. I'm not talking about people speculating about possible origins of the myths, I'm talking about people convinced that they are real.
2004-07-22 [BarleySinger]: So [Morrigon], why do you say "its probably very likely a few of them existed "? Just curious, since there are also legends of griffins, hyprogyphs, rocs, pegasus, gorgons, etc. Some legends have a grain of truth in them, but not all do, and sometimes that "grain" is far removed from the myth. You know (and this is not a commant about you) I just thought of another person who belongs up on that list. A fellow I know who was totally obcessed with unicorns. He made nice stuffed ones (a talent he considered to be "his magic") and he eventually came to the conclusion that he WAS a unicorn. Thats a far cry from having a discussion about their existence.
2004-07-22 [Tyrana]: Well... I always thought historically, a unicorn was a goat that was born with only one horn growing out of it's head. Which is very possible. I think that's why in a lot of old pictures, the unicorn has a beard! ^_^
2004-07-23 [Morrigon]: true very true. see what i mean though throughout the centuries mankind has been dramatic and so on and so forth. i've seen pictures of horses with horns, cows with one horn in their head. goats with the same haahah so i think its entirely possible
2004-07-23 [Tyrana]: Of course! But there are those who believe that they were magical creatures that granted wishes and such... or that they still exist... or that they are one, apparently, and that's... well... freaking batty.
2004-07-23 [Morrigon]: hmm. well like i've always said, i'm not going to pass anything off as PURE stupidity :P (except really mean people) i mean when i get full proof on either side then i'll believe hahaha. but i think the chances of that are slim ahahah. stil though, i like some of the stories where magical creatures come along, but that shouldnt suggest i believe them ;)
2004-07-23 [BarleySinger]: Yup,. I agree with being open minded about things. Sometimes there is a grain of truth in a myth. After all, the Hopi had a tradition that if a mouse ran over your clothes you had to burn them. Now we know why that myth arose. Deer mice carry a virus (Hantavirus) and when mice are frightened they automatically spray urine, and they spray urine to mark their territory. Anyway, an open mind is a good thing, as long as it is not so open that ones brain falls out (LOL). I am still blown away by having a conversation in which people are ticked off at me for not believing in fairies, and saying that they are not real. I also don't believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny.
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: There are actually unicorns of the goat type, but they've been intentionally bred that way, and/or had their horn buds surgically moved together at a young age, so that they would grow together into a single horn. Given the fact that many different mutations have happened throughout history (including siamese twins and two-headed animals) for a wide variety of reasons, there's a good chance that there were some mutations along those lines -
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: - but personally, I suspect that the combination of people wondering at narwhal horns (historically explained as "unicorn horns") and exposure to unfamiliar animals (such as rhinos), has more to do with the traditional legends than does the rare arising of such genetic mutations. On the other hand, some of the "legendary" animals of history have turned out to be real, such as the gill-nosed deer of Viet Nam's forests, so I don't completely dismiss the possibility of real antecedants to many of the mythological beasts...
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: ...but I still consider the existence of coelocanths and gill-nosed deer, giant birds which can carry off a small child, giant lizards large enough to eat a human, long slender scaled "sea serpents", and so on (all of which have been documented in the form of physical specimens, whether living, pickled, or in fossil form), to be a far cry from being proof that the animals of myth existed in the exact form that the myth grew into. I find the myths more fascinating to back-track, and (for instance) find the rhino behind the "white, horse-sized animal with a curved horn and the legs of an elephant".
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: Oh, and with regard to the mouse legend, don't you mean the Navajo, rather than the Hopi? That's a Navajo belief, and a very sound one, as it turned out, given the effectiveness of the taboo in keeping people safe from the Hantavirus found in local deer mice. I guess my point is that the natural world contains enough marvels that I don't need to look for "magical" aspects that don't make sense, to enhance the marvels of what can actually be demonstrated to be real.
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: I'm not closing myself off to possibility, and in fact I accept the reality of some things which I know that some people consider to be improbable at best, but I do so because of a combination of evidence which I have directly observed (or because I've carefully examined the proposition with the help of research into the field), *and* because it does not directly contradict anything that is scientifically demonstrable to anyone interested in performing the experiments. For example, I accept the use of electrical currents of the same types used by the body, in treating medical dysfunction, although some people consider this to be "fringe science" -
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: - but the technique doesn't contradict known science, and is standing up to experimental scrutiny by different people in different places, meaning that the effect is objectively measurable and reproducable. In short, I'm open to proof of just about anything, but being open to possibility is a very different thing from considering something to definitely be real, accepting it's validity without proof, or considering proof of the existence of one thing to be valid grounds for believing in everything else that has ever been dismissed as "fantasy".
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: I have real problems with arguments such as "item x is dismissed as fantasy, and these pieces of evidence exist to suggest that it actually exists -- therefore, I will not only believe in item x, but also in every other thing that has been dismissed as fantasy, because if this exists, I have no reason not to believe in those things." That's like saying that "because coelocanths were found to still exist off of the coast of Africa, I consider that to be reason to believe that the dog in the 'Son of Sam' case *actually was* talking to his owner and telling him to commit all of those murders." It's illogical.
2004-07-23 [BarleySinger]: hmmm I had "Hopi"d that I remembered correctly, but I guess not <grin/groan>
2004-07-23 [Rondel]: <rolls eyes>
2004-07-25 [BarleySinger]: I found a few interesting web pages. The first describes a type of more "stable" fantasy nut - people who have "Fantasy Prone Personality" ( http://oprfhs.
2004-07-27 [Rondel]: <picks jaw up off of floor and attempts to type...> Hokay, people, this is officially disturbing. The "meetup" site is for people who a) believe that they are vampires (with the exception of one "vampire hunter" who has "signed in blood" his vows to rid Utah of vampires or die trying), b) vampires looking for "donors", and c) at least one person who "isn't a vampire, but would like to become a donor for a pretty young single female vampire". <attempting to quell roiling stomach> I used to do fantasy role-playing games (RPGs), including the live action versions (LARPs), specifically the White Wolf "Vampire: The Masquerade" game -- but for me, it was an excuse to "play dressup"...
2004-07-27 [Rondel]: ...I liked the costuming. I liked making a series of better and better mermaid costumes, too -- but I never believed I was a mermaid. However, part of the reason that I stopped playing the Vampire LARP was because of an incident in which a couple of people at an open house were seen bleeding into glasses and drinking each other's blood. Games are one thing, but I don't want to be around people who have lost sight of the fact that they're just games. After that experience (and knowing some of the people listed above), I have trouble with the idea of playing RPGs with most of the groups out there, because there's at least one "game-obsessed player" in every gaming group;
2004-07-27 [Rondel]: in other words, I've watched too many people go sliding down the slippery slope from "game-obssesse
2004-07-27 [BarleySinger]: that is mostly because the people drawn to "full immersion fantasy" are emotionally desperate. They don't feel important or live or loved and want to have a sense of being "special" and "included" and if the obcession in question also panders to their anger (through violence, horror, etc) or to their personal problems (cutting, hypersexualtiy
2004-08-18 [Rondel]: Ooh, interesting new sites on the site list! :) Though that first couple of vampire ones really creeped me out... <shudders>
2004-08-18 [Morrigon]: did they go way over board? which ones are they... O.o
2004-08-19 [BarleySinger]: the newest vamp links are the bottom 3 under vampire delusions. These are people who think they really are vampires, or that vamps are real and they want to be "embraced". They seem to think that "Anne Rice" and "Vampire the Masquerade" are reality.
2004-08-19 [Rondel]: What really turned my stomach, when I visited those sites, was the casual way in which people were talking about "oh, yes, I'm a vampire, both psi and sang." (short for "psychic vampire" and "sanguine (blood) vampire", "and I'm looking for a donor or someone wanting to form a coven in the Salt Lake City area" (for example, though a LOT of them did seem to be from that general area...), or the one reading "I would like to be a donor for a pretty young females sang vampire", and that sort of thing. Clue: blood donors use IV tubes and containers, to donate blood to be placed in the circulatory system of an injured person. They don't go around asking people to drink their blood. <shudder>
2004-09-23 [Ophelia_Ogaard]: Well I know that [Daughter of Isis] is out of her right mind. Never trust her with anything. She is a major liar! Oh, and don't leave out a THIEF too!
2004-09-23 [Morrigon]: Well what did she do?
2004-09-24 [Rondel]: Just a reminder, folks -- we're here to discuss the behaviours, not turn this into a place for gossip/slander about other site members (even if it's true); so, if you've encountered behaviour which you think is in keeping for the subject of this Wiki, you can discuss the behaviour, but as you'll see above, we prefer the use of pseudonyms (or site references, which let people's own words/actions speak for themselves). This is not meant to discourage honest discussion, just keep this from becoming a venue for gossip wars -- and even an honest comment labeling someone by name can (unfortunately) set that sort of problem into motion.
2004-09-24 [Rondel]: I recommend describing the behaviour, and if the person sees themselves in what you've said, then maybe it will point out to them the inappropriaten
2004-09-24 [Morrigon]: true true. its kind of odd just to say you dont like someone....sor
2004-09-24 [BarleySinger]: The purpose here is about the ways in which people are crazy, not the ways in which they are dishonest or are thieves. This is not a wiki that exists for that - it is about fantasy crazies. Crazy includes things like "chatting in ICQ" and typing gibberish as if it were some secret magical language" or "insisting that they were out talking to the fairies in their backyard." or people who tack on ideas from every fantasy book that they read, onto their religious beliefs...to the point that they claim to be the leader of "The All World Eclectic Fairy Jedi Sisterhood Coven of the Illuminati Vampire Gaurdians of Oz" or some such silliness.
2004-09-24 [Morrigon]: well they could be crazy and then do things to be all...you know...cool and superhero like...you know what i mean? when peopel online get so offended and start "battles" and such for NO REASON
2004-09-25 [Rondel]: So far as I can tell, that's exactly why some of the people I've known have acted as they have -- their "craziness" came out in ways that gave them a need to feel all superior (usually in order to make up for NOT feeling "okay"), which caused them to choose to do weird things, such as the young woman mentioned above who would meddle in other people's lives, claim to be a druid priestess, and to channel a dead Welsh druid. When she was feeling good about her life, she'd admit it was all made up, but when she "needed a fix", she'd swear up and down that it was all true. That was in person, although I can see that the Web (being a larger group) might increase people's "need" to feel special.
2004-09-25 [Rondel]: As for starting battles, sometimes people do so because they want attention, and sometimes they do so because they're fighting back against a less-obvious transgression against them. I've seen public discussion (by the victim) of incidents as serious as rape or murder, be dismissed as "playing politics" or "trying to get attention", when the person's intent was to warn their community that it had a violent offender moving unnoticed in its midst. Yes, some people *are* all about politics and social "game-playing"
2004-09-25 [Rondel]: That's why I encourage people to discuss the behaviour, rather than focusing on the person -- that way, if the behaviour is real, the reader is warned and will know how to recognize it, while there is no way that the behaviour can be connected with the individual, if they *aren't* doing it. I *don't* like to see people suffer from other people's choices, whether that comes from being sucked into someone's insanity, or from being the victim of "crimes against persons or property". But since gossip wars are equally a violation of people's rights, I'd rather do like the Anti-Virus sites do, and identify the spam/scam/viru
2004-09-25 [Rondel]: Besides, in my opinion, being crazy is actually a lot like having a computer virus -- it's not something you chose to get, but it's your responsibility to get rid of it, and to see to it that you aren't made a vector for passing the harm on to others. People don't choose to be crazy, though they *can* choose not to put in the effort not to get better, once it becomes clear that something is wrong. So, in both cases, it's best to warn people what to beware of, what things are signs of problems, etc. -- but that doesn't require stigmatizing the person who has "been infected with CRAZY.WORM". Almost certainly, someone *else* (genetic or human) wrote the "Crazy Virus" infecting their wetware.
2004-09-25 [BarleySinger]: News I accidentally found while searching google for something unrelated - > I always feel like I want to get rid of a persons books when I find out stuff like this. It seems that famous fantasy writer Marrion Zimmer Bradley (Darkover, The Mists of Avalon) was married to a pedophile, and knew it, and did not care. This is part of her own court deposition : http://www.sff
2004-09-25 [Morrigon]: thats disgusting. cant she get in trouble for not saying anything?
2004-09-26 [Rondel]: A) Not now, she's dead. B) She was charged as an accessory, and the depositions revealed adequate evidence to prosecute. C) Her death came from heart attack, a month after the depositions and other court records were made public. This step was taken by the families of some of the kids, because they were being slandered and defamed by her publicist. Considering that MZB (formerly one of my favourite authors) reassured parents (when she knew that kids were being victimized), and tried to justify the abuse, I can see why someone who valued money more than people might see it as a situation needing "spin doctoring" -- but I still consider that to be wrong, and I am horrified.
2004-09-26 [Morrigon]: that is pretty disgusting. saying that it was no ones buisness but her husbands heh
2004-09-27 [BarleySinger]: She had a classical co-dependent / enabling relationship with her husband, excusing his behavior and running interference, and eventually she was participating in them (fondling her daughters breasts in the shower). All very sick stuff, and far too common in the world of SF fandom. She knew he was a pedophile before she married him. He even wrote a book on the topic of men who are attracted to boys (it is called "Greek Love") and had it published under a pen name. A person has to be pretty messed up to marry a person they know to be a pedophile.
2004-09-27 [Rondel]: Now I know where the attitudes about kids and sex (which I encountered so often, while growing up in fandom) came from. It explains a lot -- like why I know so many young people who were molested in that environment. Paul Zimmer was right in his speculation -- it would appear that you *can* induce "altering one's awareness by producing an alternative social reality".
2004-09-27 [BarleySinger]: Of course "altering one's awareness by producing an alternative social reality" is possible. Religions, cults (if there is much difference) and social movements capitalize on that. There have been quite a few psychology experiments that played with this. The famous experiments involving dividing the student volunteers into "guards and prisoners" in a mock prison, that had the guards beating the prisoners within a few days, come to mind. It probably helps a lot when the people in the group in question are unstable to start with - not to say that any human primate is likely to be that stable living in a city situation. City life runs counter to human evolutionary drives.
2004-09-27 [BarleySinger]: I honestly believe that the process of "civilizing" humanity is quite a bit like the process humans use to tame/domestica
2004-09-27 [Morrigon]: so even though she says that he wouldnt make the kids if they said no. its basically like he's making them any way. Especially when its an adult, childern are brought up to "respect" and "obey" adults so what kind of position does that put the child in? to go against their beliefs? which can also be tied into religion and cults, what choice can be made when they're already that deep in it. and once the kids give into the adults once, there really is no going back for them there is no other way. they dont want any one to know. they feel guilty and dirty. its a sick sad thing that this was allowed to go on.
2004-09-28 [Rondel]: I've been in that situation, and I know that feeling of shame -- having someone "nearby" only adds to it, once you're convinced that there is something about *you* that makes the molestor think that you're a suitable target. One part of the victim's brain knows that this is wrong to do *TO ANYBODY ELSE*, but it's happening *TO THEM*, so the victim gets the feeling that there must be something about *THEM* (something wrong) that makes it somehow "okay" to do those things to *THEM*. My daughter didn't even like coming to me when the kids across the street were calling her names -- and yet MZB (and others) assume that just because they were "in the house" a molested kid would come to them??
2004-09-28 [Rondel]: When the social cues say "what's happening is okay", going to someone and saying "your husband did this thing to me, and I don't think it was right, and I feel all upset inside about it" is *NOT* an easy thing -- and it's too much to expect of a child, when EVERY SOCIAL CUE says "I approve of my husband's behaviour with you". Then there's the attitude that because the kid doesn't speak up and object (and "wasn't a virgin" -- at age 11, after 3 years of molestation), there's nothing wrong with treating them as a sex object -- mind you, at an age where MZB (in a self-contradic
2004-09-28 [Rondel]: The adults have to send the signal that "this is NOT okay, and if it happens, it's the adult doing something wrong, I'm here to protect you", and *stand by that*, before a victimized child is likely to come to them. Otherwise, you wind up with a situation that is much like Shel Silverstein's poem about how "The Bagpipe Didn't Say No". Lack of confidence (or ability) to object does not constitute consent, especially to things that a person can't reasonably be expected to consent to (like abuse). But, alter the social climate, and the signals that tell a person "this isn't okay" suddenly go missing. IMHO, that's true whether the fantasy is "sleeping with the cheerleader" or "being a vampire".
2004-09-28 [BarleySinger]: I would have to agree with both of you. Kids take their ideas of what is "OK" from the people (especially the adults) around them, and if the adults act like there is nothing wrong with abuse then the kids accept that as "normal reality". The reason I wanted all this mentioned on this wiki, is that sexual abuse is very common among die hard members of fandom, the groups that they are members of, and the social cliques that they live in. My guess is that MZB was herself a sexual abuse victim (who chose to live in fantasy instead of dong the hard work to get better) so as an adult (having refused a painful reality) she was willing to accept a pedophile as a husband. It was easier for her to..
2004-09-28 [BarleySinger]: ...obcess on fantasy (as a way of "avoidance of" and "disconnection from" emotional pain). At least that is my guess, as I have seen it a great deal with other people. It is easier to just avoid all that emotional pain by obsessing on something else (fantasy, religion, whatever) that it is to face it. The problem is that ignoring that there are "lions on the Savannah of life" does not make the "lions" go away. The are still there. Reality does not change just because we do not like it. As a person with no responsibiliti
2004-09-28 [Rondel]: I'd have to agree -- being obsessed with fantasy (to the point of losing track of reality) is bad enough when one is young and independent... ...but in a parent, it gives the child the message that the fantasy (or cult, or religion, or whatever) is normal, and the standards of the obsession become those on which the child is imprinted. The kids in the case mentioned were being exposed to beliefs, from MZB and others, that said "kids being viewed as sexual partners for much older adults, even prospective adoptive parents, is normal and okay". No wonder it was so easy for Walter Breen to find and abuse as many victims as he did -- the kids were being shown (by its acceptance) it was okay.
2004-09-28 [Rondel]: People forget that adults (even young adults) who indulge in craziness have at least been exposed to reality, and know what the standards of the real world are. Kids, on the other hand, who are raised by fantasy obsessed parents, or in a fantasy focused environment, may never actually see the standards of the real world in action. All they may ever have known is the fantasy world's standards, like the following paraphrased quotes from the aforementioned case: "age of consent laws only exist to stop children from having fun", and "if my husband chooses to have sex with 8-year-old boys, that's nobody's business but his own -- including the concerned parents, even should they ask outright".
2004-09-28 [BarleySinger]: ummm..."to stop kids from having fun"....eeeww.
2004-09-28 [BarleySinger]: in a semi-transpare
2004-09-29 [Rondel]: I'll admit, this is a bit of a pet peeve with me (to put it mildly) -- but then again, if it weren't for its impact on other people, fantasy obsession wouldn't be anything more than "one more way in which people can choose to be weird", and there really wouldn't be any reason for it to be anybody else's business. It would still be unhealthy if a person were putting their fantasy obsession ahead of basic needs and responsibiliti
2005-05-27 [Kitten Hurts]: i know of 2 people who r bout this crazy
2005-05-29 [BarleySinger]: I have known many. there are a lot of them on elftown. I was on one elftown art contest Wiki where most of the people there were talking about how "fairies are real" and what they "really look like".
2005-05-29 [Morrigon]: well with stuff like that I'm not going to say that wierd little things like that exist. I dont think there are tiny people with wings. I dont know it only really bothers me when people think that they are all powerful beings.
2005-05-30 [Rondel]: That convo ran more along the lines of "if you knew what I knew, you'd be scared -- my brother told me all about them". One step short of "ooga-booga". I'm not a complete skeptic when it comes to odd occurrences in the world, either, but there's "open-minded" & then there's "has anyone seen my brain? It appears to have fallen out somewhere around here -- maybe the fairies took it, or maybe it was fried while I was dreamscaping against those demons last night". <wry almost-laugh> I wish more people could find a happy medium between "current science knows everything" (doesn't that conflict with the very concept of "current" science?) & "the fae are real, be afraid, very afraid"...
2005-05-31 [Morrigon]: well people get bored with their lives.
2005-06-01 [Rondel]: Yes, and people get bored with reality -- but that doesn't mean that they can really afford to wander right out of it and leave it behind; completely losing track of the difference between fantasy and reality like that is considered to be a sign of mental illness, and for good reason.
2005-06-02 [Morrigon]: it doesnt mean they should but since when do people do what they should?
2005-06-02 [Rondel]: I didn't say should, I said "can afford to" -- and for good reason. It's not about "should", to me, it's about the people I've known whose lives have basically become casualties of their fantasy obsession (or worse, delusion). *sigh* If it were only about "should", and whether it's a good idea, I wouldn't worry about it as much. But when people do things like abandoning their kids to a crowd of strangers because of an obsession (and a belief that "their angels will take care of them", or "these people have the same interests that I do, therefore they're like family, even though I've never met them before..."), more than just the obsessed person is getting hurt -- and I've seen it happen.
2005-06-02 [Rondel]: It may seem like a big leap from the one to the other -- but they all seem to be steps on the same road; the question is whether a person turns off of that road before they let it get to the point where it's seriously endangering themselves or others. Pretty much anything short of that, I accept and take in stride, though it can and does annoy me at times -- mostly when I see people doing it for fun around people whom they don't realize are taking it far too seriously, and so they're accidentally feeding someone's delusion. I don't want to contribute to someone's mental illness, and I don't really enjoy hanging out around people who are doing it, whether intentionally or not. Make sense?
2005-07-05 [BarleySinger]: well, how about when they only believe that they are a ninja, collect ninja weapons, etc? I know of one who then went and killed a girl who lived in his building, who he was obcessed with. Then there are all the girls I have met who want to believe that they are fairies becasue it is a "better" world that the one in which their parents ignore them completely...o
2005-09-21 [Azuri]: I stated this over at Playgans but I think i will bring it over here.There were some kids at my school who claimed they could tell our "power levels" and that there were were enemys that only certian people could see (they had to have the right "power levels")that were throwing psychic energy into their arms/legs and whatnot also they claimed to be wiccan/pagan. Not only that but the boy who inisted on being called "Vash"(you know like from trigun if youve ever heard of it) Who would bring in screen captures of a anime called Witch Hunter Robin(good show)claiming he redid them. now if you were to redo something you most likely wont do it with fuzzness so i called him out on it. The girl was
2005-09-21 [Azuri]: who claimed to be able to see things. like she would sit there(when i was still putting up with them) and be like theres one over there while we were in the cafiteria eventually i just told them off and was like dont come around me
2005-09-22 [Rondel]: Very good examples of the type of person who inspired this wiki. Care to have them added to the main list? If so, just provide the description, and the pseudonym you'd like appended (we don't see a point in stigmatizing the individual, by posting their names -- this wiki is about the BEHAVIOUR itself, and we can always hope that the individuals will outgrow it...), & we'll gladly add them; they seem to meet the basic qualifying factors, of believing in their own fantasy/fictio
2005-09-22 [Azuri]: Okies I will "Vash" Claimed to be able to tell our "power levels" Claimed to be a "wizard" at first before I told him no self respecting wiccan/pagan would call themselfs a wizard. He went along with the "Delusional"(the girl) on the whole could see what was not there thing.Along with being slightly out of it he was a art theif taking stuff from major anime shows airing on cartoon network and saying he "Recreated them" when all they were were simply screencaptures
2005-09-22 [Azuri]: "Delusional" Was big on the "I can see them" things she for the most part lead "Vash" around on that whole deal. She also claimed to be a witch/wiccan/p
2005-09-22 [Rondel]: There, both of these individuals have been added to the list; I hope that the editing (for clarity) is acceptable to you. Many of the individuals listed on this page are also included in the lyrics of "Wiccan Wannabe Mystic Bullshit Spouting Blues", which may be viewed on the Playgans Songs wiki page.
2005-09-22 [Azuri]: Yay^.^ *goes off to look at the song*
2006-04-04 [zoloftzantac]: umm ... wow
2006-04-16 [Fireblade K'Chona]: -shakes head sadly- You know, I adore fantasy; I love it very dearly and I do role-play online, but I do remember that it ISN'T real. -headdesk- I have an open mind, yes, but there's a difference between going, "I wonder what would happen if..." and filling in fantasy characters in real situations and actually BELIEVING it would happen. I write a lot, see, and one of my favorite things to write about is magic colliding rather messily with what we term the real world. Pratchett's warped my sense of humor that way. ^_^ For instance, in one of my current things I'm writing I worked out the logistics of how Ine (a pretty darn powerful mage) actually fuels his power, and my best friend and-
2006-04-16 [Fireblade K'Chona]: -I came up with this thing that he has to eat a LOT to be able to power anything. He eats more than 4 American football players in one sitting and if he eats less than that he dies of malnutrition. There are serious disadvantages and whatnot for him. Also in his world, I have Ine and Adriane (main character) run into these people who belive that eating as much as a mage will make you a mage, in the general attitude of those described here. However. This is FICTION. It is my own little world that exists only in my mind and on paper. I would like to have lunch with Ine (if he picked up the bill) but I know that he is a fantasy character who I invented and no way in HELL would that ever-
2006-04-16 [Fireblade K'Chona]: -happen. In fact, if someone came up to me and claimed to be Ine, I would run in the other direction. Fast. My point is, yes, I love fantasy. Yes, I make up things. But the difference between me and those people up there is that I know what I make up is fictional. (well...except for a few things, conversations and such, that are thrown in pretty much verbatim from my own life.) But the people HAVING this verbatim conversation aren't real. Right, I'm done, and even if it contradicts my old sailing bosun's motto of 'Never surrender, make them DRAG you off that soapbox!' I'm stepping down. Because my fingers are @$#%$% freezing and I need to go warm them up. :P
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: Yes, well, that's the difference between you & those folks, all right! :) Having known many of the people listed on this page, I know that (once 'round the bend, at least) these folks reacted to having people show up & claim to be the characters/peo
2006-04-16 [Fireblade K'Chona]: The only exception I'd make would be if it were Halloween. And even then I'd be kind of wary. I go to anime cons; dressing up as a person is one thing. Being in character is another thing. Claiming to actually BE the character is entirely different, but sometimes it's difficult to tell crazies apart from really good actors. One of my best friends is this amazing actress and if I didn't know she were an amazing actress, she'd probably scare the shit out of me.
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: Many writers DO use elements/exper
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: at the long-term scale that it becomes obvious that "a decade ago, this guy was your imaginary boyfriend -- then a couple of years later you started saying he was real but he'd died, then a few years later you tricked someone into driving you to another country to spread ashes/flowers on the site where he'd supposedly died, then he became an ancient druid spirit (reincarnated, perhaps) over the next couple of years, then you started sleeping with a guy who said he could channel this dead Welsh druid for you..." or whatever. Each transition may not be obvious to someone who's only known the person for a year or two; one might notice the changes over the period of time one shares a school,
2006-04-16 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Um. Scary, much?
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: for instance. I know what you mean about trying to tell the really good actors/RP'ers apart from the nuts -- but the main difference I've found is whether or not they can put the character down at will. I've done my fair share of acting (& then some, perhaps) including live RPGs, & I was quite good at it (recruited into a college play while in my mid-teens, made it into audition-only regional workshops, etc., as well as doing well in the RPGs) -- but the character was something I put on & took off, usually with the costume, or between start and end of rehearsal or designated game times. That is characteristic of people who still know that there's a difference between fantasy & reality.
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: I've known actors who could convince you that they were utterly nuts one minute, and be discussing what to order for pizza, the next (one of them posts here)... ...but again, they chose the nature of the character, made it up, could change it at will, could stop the pretense and be "normal" at will (even while still "in costume", or what have you) -- whereas many of the nuts, on the other hand, would start dropping into character more and more often in their (formerly) real lives. *sigh* Yes, VERY scary, especially once you've seen the first few people get lost in their fantasies, even institutionali
2006-04-16 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Nope. What's it about? I'm going to go have lunch, I'm acting a little strange, food will probably help.
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: http://www.spa
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: More info here (for anyone interested): http://www.goo
2006-04-16 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Ooooh! I'm something of a book whore. -toddles off-
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: A good example of a step on the path to becoming a "fantasy crazy": http://www.hot
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: You write, Fireblade k'Chona -- are *your* fictional worlds characterized by their perfection and lack of a dark side? I suspect not -- yet the author of this essay is prepared to postulate that the fictional character of a novel based on the author's own life is incapable of having created the language and landscape in the novel, based (among other things) on the fact that the world described has depth to it, and harsh or unpleasant elements, rather than being simply a beautiful daydream.
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: I don't mean to pick on the author of the essay (who is/was probably a student not yet graduated from HS, to judge from the URL), but rather to point out that people are too ready to accept fiction as a form of reality, simply because it "seems too real" to them to be imaginary. That is a sign that one either hasn't fully formed one's grip on reality (a thing that comes with growing up, so its lack is somewhat understandable in a child), or has begun to lose that grip -- and it shows perfectly the first few steps of the progression this page was designed to discuss.
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: The thing that is so important to me about this book, in this context, is the way that it shows that mental illness & retreat into fantasy can be linked, and how strongly increased focus on fantasy can be symptomatic of turning points within a person's progressive mental illness. In particular, it actually shows the opposite of what the aforeementione
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: Further, it shows how understanding the connection between the fantasy and the components of the illness can help a person honour another person's need for understanding without descending into participating in (and thus feeding) a person's derangement or disconnection with reality. Yr doesn't need to be "a real place" to have depth and a shadow side -- we all have those things within ourselves, and any place created as a shelter for the psyche will contain within it all the things that are part of the psyche that built it (including the pain and harshness which led to its creation).
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: Is it any wonder, then, that so many of those lost in fantasy and listed on this page have gotten lost in *dark* fantasies, fantasies full of (abused) power and control? These are, after all, the things characteristic of the types of life experiences which can/do/may/wil
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: I guess my point is that, like the Yr of the novel (and the Iria of the author's real life derangement), a person's fantasy life can often act as a map to show the discerning individual just what it was that drove that person into their fantasy world in the first place -- as long as the viewer remembers that it is a reflection of the person's injured psyche, and not a "hidden aspect of reality, to which only the accepting can penetrate". That way lies the door to madness -- and worse yet, madness of another's making, that lies like an echo over the true topography of the borrower's own injured soul.
2006-04-16 [Morrigon]: What exactly triggers it? I've known people who haven't suffered any traumatic experience yet they surround themselves with a fantasy world to seem...more important? Maybe these days people feel too ignored and so must create some bizzare story that people don't understand (because no one understands them) and they make themselves the hero or a person who is suffering...
2006-04-16 [Morrigon]: sorry I interrupted...
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: Some people do indeed seem to do this sort of fantasy wallowing because of a sense of feeling "overlooked" or "unimportant", so they create a world for themselves where they have the thing that is lacking in their real lives -- in that case, importance. In the case of the novel & its author, it was a sense of logic (events in the real world happen for such diverse causes that they can easily seem illogical, especially to a child who does not yet comprehend most of the factors at work in the larger world) and a sense of control, or acceptance. Ironically, that last one seems to be a HUGE factor in many of the cases I've known personally - the desire for a sense of unconditional acceptance.
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: No worries, [Morrigon] - your comment was actually perfectly timed -- it came right at the end of my lengthy comment (brought about in part by finding that essay when I was looking for a good online reference to the book I mentioned). :) I'm glad to know that someone is finding this interesting enough to ask questions, and think about things like the causative factors, and the cases of this they've run across in their own lives. :)
2006-04-16 [Morrigon]: It's just bizzare that people cross that line between make believe and complete insanity. I wonder what makes it so hard for some people to accept what is real and what isnt. I mean we can't be arrogent to say we know exactly what exists. but someone saying they have a bunch of powers seems like a way to control other people around them.
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: Or to gain a sense of control of their own life, when they feel like it is the world that has gone crazy around them, perhaps? Yes, it's about control... ...but you have to remember that most of the things that people do are, deep down, about themselves, & what they feel/think/nee
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: Of course, you have to dig pretty deep into a person's psyche to see things at that level -- on a more surface level, a lot of people seem to get their jollies by playing "puppetmaster" and making others dance to their tune. But usually whatever a person is shouting the loudest and most irrationally in their life (whether in word or in deed) seems (to me at least) to be the thing that they least believe/feel, deep down. So shouting "I'm in control, I'm controlling all of you, see?" may just be their way of countering a deep-seated feeling of powerlessness -- even a sense of irrelevance to their own life. Certain forms of psychotherapy are actually based around allowing a person to "hear"
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: those inner voices (in a FIGURATIVE way, not literally), so that they can get in touch with whatever it is that's been driving them to act out in whatever way has been disrupting their lives. Sometimes that disruption comes when they try to "counter" those "inner voices" ("you're not important, you don't matter, you could die tomorrow & nobody'd care" - whatever...), & sometimes people seem to act out in order to *VALIDATE* their inner "life script" (e.g. "I will always wind up with wo/men who hurt me", "I'll always be a failure", etc.) - but so much of people's "craziness" seems to stem from battling with an inner sense of themselves & the way their lives have worked, or "are supposed to"
2006-04-16 [Rondel]: work, that it makes a lot of sense to work on letting the person interact with that inner sense of themselves & their lives more directly, instead of through what the psych workers often term "acting out behaviour". I think that "fantasy craziness" would definitely fall into the category of "acting out" for many people, at least when they first get into it, though for others it really is a manifestation of some deeply held delusion that arose another way. Put the two together, as one often sees in groups dedicated to this kind of thing (say, Otherkin support groups, for example), & you get a lot of different types of craziness reinforcing one another through shared surface-level delusions.
2006-04-17 [Morrigon]: That does make a lot of sense. No matter what or how amused I tend get reading these stories it still saddens me that people can't just....Live..
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: It is sad -- but as Fireblade k'Chona said, it is also scary. Unfortunately, in groups that are highly accepting of fantasy and role-playing, many of these people are able to "pass for normal" a lot longer than they can in other contexts, which can be detrimental to their own mental health, can make others unintentionall
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: And yes, it can be really funny to see the things that these people do, especially when one is fairly confident that they are still at the stage where they know that they're doing this for attention -- in fact, laughing at their big "I'm so powerful" act can actually be a positive thing, and even help them break out of it. But when people are deeper into the insanity, all that the amusement and derision of others can do is drive them further into seeking escape among people who *will* accept their "eccentricitie
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: do think that confronting people with a list of people who are getting lost in fantasy, and the similarities between their behaviours, can help to "wake up" both the folks who are just starting down that road, and the people around them, who might otherwise cater to their "fantasy life", without recognizing that its progression is a sign that they are losing their grip on reality. So I think that the amusement serves a purpose -- but it's important to see the other side of the issue too. Maybe I should add this last page of comments to the wiki, to reflect that? I don't know -- what do you think?
2006-04-17 [Morrigon]: Hm...when people I've known tried to talk to the person in our area who is trapped in a fantasy world. They were met with anger. And it wasnt like, 'Hey man, you're an idiot stop doing that." it was more along the lines of "You dont have to do this to just hang out with us"
2006-04-17 [Morrigon]: Maybe sometimes people just have to grow out of if, or get over it. And it doesn't always happen. Sometimes maybe people actually need professional help...Who knows...You most likely do heheh
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: IMHO, the answer is "both" -- sometimes people just have to grow out of it, regardless of their starting age... ...and other times, they may need help, perhaps even professional help; without it, they may not have the ability to get out of the psychological hole they've dug for themselves. But that's really a judgement call that needs to be made by a professional, preferably with the cooperation of the person suffering from the fantasy obsession. Without that kind of evaluation, it can be very difficult to tell the difference between a budding Tolkein or Pratchett, who has so many creative ideas that they can't help spilling over with them a great deal of the time -- and someone who is
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: truly lost in an inner world, whether or not it is one of their own creation. That's not to say that a layperson can't/shouldn'
2006-04-17 [Morrigon]: what's even more sad is his mother is the same way. convinced that she is an all powerful witch. It's rather scary and she has that personality that drives people away because she tends to be way too controlling over everything. She also tries to convert people to her ways she somehow tries to bond paganism with satanism...I don't understand it but I'm sure he got that sort of behavior from her.
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: In the case of this person, I'd say that it's very likely that professional help is going to be needed before he's completely found his way out of the mess his mother has gotten him into, then. He sounds like an example of the kind of people one meets all too often when one is heavily involved in long-lasting fantasy-orient
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: What happens in 2nd (or later) generation fantasy crazies is that they can't stay sane & still live at home. To live with a nutter in the family, they have to adapt to the mentality and dysfunction of the nutter. They may be able to set it aside to an extent, in other environments, but they literally CAN'T afford to make the mental changes that would dig them out of the world of fantasy -- because if they do, they won't be able to function in their home environment, upon which they are dependent for survival. I've known people to find ways to leave home while still a minor, in order to deal with this, or abandon therapy until they were out of the crazy's home; there are
2006-04-17 [Rondel]: several different solutions, but they all boil down to this -- sanity & nutters are incompatible. That's not to say that sanity and fantasy are incompatible, mind you, just that people who are crazy in ANY way are not compatible with a fully sane viewpoint and mode of functioning in those who have to live with them. It's really not much different from the issues faced by families of alcoholics -- the family has to adapt to the mentally ill person's dysfunctions, and be able to accommodate them, if that person has a position of power in the family (like parent). There are some good sites online that talk about this sort of thing, if you're interested, as well as a variety of good books.
2006-04-17 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Oh lord, that was a lot of comments. And Ine's world has a major dark side-it's not perfect by any means, which makes Adriane (from our world) kind of boggle now and then. It's actually based vaguely off Irish legends of Faerieland and such, and there's a major reason for this, but I digress; message me if you want more detail. Anyhow. I realize, thanks largely to this page, that I run the...well, not exactly the risk, per se, but the chance of meeting fantasy crazies, just by the people I interact with. I like anime cons; I'd LOVE going to a Ren Faire, and-well, I role play. The problem with hanging around with people like this is, well, as you said; it's hard to tell talented actors-
2006-04-17 [Fireblade K'Chona]: -or writers who are deeply interested in their writing (like me) from genuine crazies. I lost my point somewhere. So instead I'll just say something about how for one, you're allowed to call me Blade, if you wish, easier to type, and for another...just lost that point, hang on...well, maybe those of us who are not fantasy crazies but hang out in environments where there are some should get psychology degrees. Which actually wasn't what I originally was going to say, but hey, whatever.
2006-04-17 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Oh yes. I met a girl at camp this year, I'll call her Melissa, who had a friend for a while who had an imaginary friend. Then this friend moved away, and according to 'Melissa', the imaginary friend moved in with her. His name is Paul, he does things like move small items to where she can't find them, she said she could see him, and he liked porn. She is now a freshman in high school. I basically just kinda...went along with it. Didn't encourage it, just followed the little truism, 'When in doubt, nod and smile.'
2006-04-17 [Morrigon]: heh wow. I just avoid people like that. they somehow make me frightened.
2006-04-17 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Well, the camp I was at at the time had a total of 11 people in it. (it was a very small group with a trip into the mountains.) So it was either be near her and be on good terms, or be near her and be on bad terms.
2006-04-18 [Rondel]: That being the case, [Fireblade K'Chona], I quite agree with your decision to opt for "good terms", by way of the relatively neutral method of "nodding & smiling". Having known a number of people who made similar claims, I can attest that some of them were pretty much perfectly nice, & others were dangerous - but both types tended to have less people judgement than I'd like in terms of their friends, so I'd be cautious about trusting their friends. Not pissing them off, especially in the middle of nowhere with nowhere to go to get away from them, that makes sense -- but I wouldn't cultivate the friendship, not knowing what I know now. I wouldn't necessarily reject the person out of hand,
2006-04-18 [Rondel]: because at that age she could just be slightly off, & rather impressionable
2006-04-18 [Rondel]: but even many/most of the harmless ones would not necessarily intervene to stop a violent crime from being committed in front of them, because it might be written into their fantasy (their escape from the bad parts of reality), so that (like the other bad parts of reality) they don't have to deal with it. I've seen so much of THAT in the kinds of settings you describe, [Fireblade K'Chona], that I tend to err on the side of MASSIVE caution when operating in such settings (& eventually left them, after several (often witnessed, never stopped) assaults). A degree isn't necessary, but I *would* advocate a certain amount of self-education
2006-04-18 [Rondel]: tell the players when you recognize the standard scripts and roles, to borrow a couple of useful psychological terms. I tend to recommend a couple of those aforementioned books: "Games People Play" and "Roles People Act", both by Eric Berne, MD. Transactional analysis may sound like heavy reading -- but it's one of the most useful tools I can recommend to ANY person in trying to keep from falling in with nutters without realizing it. It's also good for helping a person recognize their own tendencies to fall into "bad psychological habits", and it doesn't take a whole lot of heavy reading to get a handle on the basics. Best of all, it works with the concept of "scripts", which is the
2006-04-18 [Rondel]: direction in which the "fantasy crazies" go off the beam. So, all in all, I'd say it's a good thing to look into if you're going to be spending a lot of time in the environments you mention -- it can help a lot in telling the creative types from the ones who've "lost the plot" (to use a bit of useful Australian slang). Here are a couple of good places to start: http://frogsan
2006-04-18 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Oooh, more books! -interest-
2006-04-21 [BarleySinger]: It is true that there are two major different groups - 1) those that were raised in unreality 2) those who chose it for some reason. Those who choose unreality have experienced a different way of life. Those raised in fantasy know nothing else and kids automatically accept what they are raised in. It is only the unusual few who ever question how they were raised - no matter how odd or destructive. The people who go "fantasy nuts" 1st generation, they chose it becasue there is a "pay off". It lets them avoid something and/or it gives them something they want. It is the same in religious obcession as it is in pretending to be a vampire or a wizard.
2006-04-21 [BarleySinger]: No matter what a person pretends to be in order to feel more special...no matter what invisible friend a person has - who gives them "unconditional love" it is the same thing ("deiety" or "1000 year old dead druid") if it is about avoiding painful realitites it is still endulging in a fantasy to avoid pain and to get "subverted strokes". It could be avoiding the fact that a person parents were emotionaly cold. It could be a person having been sexually abused by someone. But in the end it is avoidance and it does not heal the damage. And...a person passing on a "coping mechanism" as a form of insanity, and making it their kids reality - because reality was hard, is not OK to do.
2006-04-21 [Morrigon]: I don't believe that kids automatically accept what they are raised in. Only because I've seen many children who choose not to be like their parents. That's like saying a child growing up around parents who drink will automatically become a drunk. It's important to remember that children aren't mindless drones that believe whatever they are told. They are people too.
2006-04-21 [Morrigon]: And it seems to me that not every case is dealing with someone (a 1000 year old dead druid) who is avoiding the pain of life by covering it over with a fantasy. From what I've seen a lot of times and from what I hear it seems that it's almost more to get attention. To feel special, to Feel more than others. To me this fantasy deal is more about being noticed, being accepted. Being special.
2006-04-21 [Morrigon]: Almost each one of these stories features a person who can "see things that others can't" or can "feel things" or are unique. That makes me think that this mindframe is more about getting attention or being special in ways that no one can understand. In this society somehow being the outcast is viewed as romantic, heroic. same as feeling some "pain" that others can't. Or fighting a battle to save others. Some of these people are just plain...dement
2006-04-21 [Morrigon]: I just wonder if there is an actual line where fantasy fun and enjoyment turns to obsession, lies and delusions...Ma
2006-04-26 [Rondel]: Well, I can't speak to every case, but I know many of the people listed above fairly well (including she of the dead druid fantasy), and the majority of them did indeed have traumatic issues in their personal pasts (sexual abuse, incest, domestic violence, etc.), though I can't swear to that in all cases. Some do indeed seem to do this because they feel that their lacklustre lives don't "measure up" to their own expectations, or that they have self-image problems which require a grandiose reputation in order to compensate for their own perceived lacks. But it does seem that life crises (acute or mild-but-prolo
2006-04-26 [Morrigon]: Hmm. I guess it goes either way. Thanks for helping to clear that up. I just haven't had any first hand accounts of those who have been abused.
2006-04-26 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Oh lord. I read I Never Promised You a Rose Garden last night. That was...one of the most intense books I have ever read.
2006-04-27 [Morrigon]: What was it about? I can kind of guess what it is about but it sounds interesting already.
2006-04-28 [Rondel]: Scroll back a couple of pages in the comments, & you'll see the summary I posted here when I suggested it to Fireblade k'Chona. :) It's a very relevant book to this particular discussion, as it shows one person's road into this kind of delusion (though one of her own creation, rather than latching onto something someone else wrote). A lot of what fantasy delusion (and even the milder forms of fantasy obsession and/or escapism) comes down to seems to be a desire to disconnect oneself from some aspect of one's life (anything from trauma to a feeling of being unimportant/in
2006-07-17 [Fireblade K'Chona]: ....I need to give y'all a link to someone who has been floating around on the net and is serious about what she says. http://www.liv
2006-07-17 [Fireblade K'Chona]: It's been a thread on godawful.net for quite some time now, and apparently she has been doing this for years and is, alas, completely serious. I wouldn't mind so much if she didn't Capitalize Everything. It Gives Me A Headache! I fear for the future of humanity, I really do. -hides-
2006-07-17 [Azuri]: *pets* its ok we all fear for the future O.o i hate people who think you have to have caps lock on 24/7
2006-07-18 [Morrigon]: Gah...this is just odd
2006-07-21 [BarleySinger]: ad "faire damsel"’s live journal page. She is, what I have come to know as a standard "fairy wanna be". A fantasy mystical bullshitter (often an SCA nutter), who wants to dress up in pseudomedieval clothes in order to play dress-up, which is a part of her "denial of reality" trip. I have seen it in literally thousands of people. Go to any SF/Fantasty Con, Ren Fair, SCA event, or other like minded gathering and you can meet huge numbers of people just like her. They often will sit around in small groups exchanging delusions in order to validate them for each other. Most are social outcasts in real life, many were emotionally or sexually abused. Living in a part time "fairy land" allow
2006-07-22 [Morrigon]: Sheesh. you know there is nothing wrong with going to the Ren Fair or whatever and having fun, acting out a role that is fantasy. But keep it in line. Some people get way out of control.
2006-07-22 [Rondel]: Exactly -- a Ren Faire (for instance) *can be* a fun recreational activity. But it should not become one's real life, and should not start to overshadow one's real life, or become a "gateway make-believe" allowing one to escape even further into fantasy. But, for far too many people, it is. I used to be active in those kinds of groups, and I met FAR too many people like this. When I started to meet the truly dangerous ones, and realized how many of the people around me were so sunk in fantasy that they couldn't handle reality enough to call the police when they witnessed serious crimes being committed in front of them, that's when I left. It's really disturbing, seeing people -- well,
2006-07-22 [Rondel]: not just "lose sight of reality", but deliberately LET GO of it, like a drowning person deliberately letting go of the rope that was trying to pull them to the surface. *sigh* It's even more disturbing when you know that they are doing it DESPITE a realization that some of the people around them are *DANGEROUSLY* crazy, and they'll never know which ones, if everyone is busy playing "pretend" all of the time. *sigh* *shudder* I wonder how long it will take this person to regain their sanity, and how much treatment it will take, if they ever do. :/
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: Sorry about the weird partial message. My connection sucked and I’m fighting too much ill health to fight my computer that much. Back to what I was trying to say. I read "faire damsel"’s live journal page. She is, what I have come to know as a standard "fairy wanna be". A fantasy mystical bullshitter (often an SCA nutter), who wants to dress up in pseudomedieval clothes in order to play dress-up, which is a part of her "denial of reality" trip. I have seen it in literally thousands of people. Go to any SF/Fantasy Con, Ren Fair, SCA event, or other like minded gathering and you can meet huge numbers of people just like her. They often will sit around in small groups exchanging
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: delusions with each other, talking about how they are all really fairies or some such other nonsense, all in order to get and receive validation for the way they have decided to avoid the emotional pain that is impossible to avoid. Most people who slowly drift away from reality and stop being at a con or a fair, or a visitor at an SCA event (just to have fun) and who then make fantasy their whole way of life, often LIVE their whole lives in one or more in fantasy groups. These are people who view their fantasy groups as being “home” and “the real world”, and want to live there full time. There is no balance to their lives because for them fantasy is an addiction.
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: They are usually social outcasts in ordinary real life, many are emotional wrecks and come from very bad families, and were emotionally or sexually abused. Anybody who was those qualities who starts using anything - a substance or a group or a religion as a place to hide from their pain, or an easy answer to complex problems, is at serious risk. In this case the place to hide is just the fantasy of a Ren Fair or a LARP instead of the fantasy or a cult, bottle or needle. Living in a part time "fairy land" allows a person a means of escape from a reality that they cannot bear to face...but that they must face in order to get sane. I am not saying that the
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: occasional afternoon of dress up isn’t fun, or even that it is innately dangerous for everybody. But there are people for whom it is just as dangerous as that first drink at a friends super-bowl party is to an alcoholic. Some people are teetering on the very edge of a reality schism as it is. Being handed a ready-made place to go (often one that meets somewhere nearly every weekend) where they can just ignore all the bad memories of life and put on a new personality, is a huge temptation. It often gives the person a “new start on life” in their fantasy persona, in a world that is all about fun. After a world filled with so much pain, that is a big temptation – but
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: it isn’t really real, and it solves none of the real problems that made them flee into fantasy in the first place. Often a fantasy setting will have different rules and standards for things like sexual behavior and access to alcohol and other recreational drugs. Often people are told that inside of their fantasy land, the same actions are lacking in the same dangers and responsibiliti
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: “sexual license” can be intoxicating to a person if they were repressed from sexually abuse. The truth is that the same rules apply everywhere. Even people who think they are “other-kin” still need to practice safe sex, and mo matter how many people one has playing “mystical bullshit” it still does not make the fantasy of wanting to be of the fair folk the truth. But …it does help the fantasy obsession along if you have a place you can hang out, with other people who are doing the same things you are doing…which is why people like this tend to congregate in fantasy organizations. In the case of "faire damsel"’, she is actually trying to convince other people out in the wor
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: “sexual license” can be intoxicating to a person if they were repressed from sexually abuse. The truth is that the same rules apply everywhere. Even people who think they are “other-kin” still need to practice safe sex, and mo matter how many people one has playing “mystical bullshit” it still does not make the fantasy of wanting to be of the fair folk the truth. But …it does help the fantasy obsession along if you have a place you can hang out, with other people who are doing the same things you are doing…which is why people like this tend to congregate in fantasy organizations. In the case of "faire damsel"’, she is actually trying to convince other people out in the
2006-07-22 [Morrigon]: ugh god... >.<
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: world to be like her. She wants to recruit other people and tell them that they also have a hidden "other-kin" heritage. Her own supposed heritage has been woven into a weird cloth that crosses over into many famous myths of the ancient Celts...becaus
2006-07-22 [BarleySinger]: who would have guessed). If you want to see a classic example of just what we're talking about here, from a first-hand perspective, try this link (it's to the page for her supposed "faerie heritage", with comments (worth reading) at the end): http://faire-d
2006-09-19 [Aradon Templar]: Heh, I'm not sure exactly how he'd fit into this, but have you met/talked with [A R I]? He's banned now, but beforehand he was at least claiming to believe in a pseudo Illuminati/occ
2006-09-20 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Oooooh lord, BarleySinger, there are 87 pages at last count of comments on that girl. Most of it is utter disbelief; we're not all that mean, but we're all just kind of WTF about it all. She's...intere
Though when she does things like beg for money online we're just like, "Um, go earn some yourself." And it's just for a trip to Ireland-and for donations, she will donate 'a moment of prayer' at at sacred shrines and what-all.
Very nice for real-world friends, I suppose, but for internet friends? Um...not quite so much. I wouldn't donate money online unless I personally knew the person, though I do worry about their issues and what-all.
Right, I'm not coherent right now and I still have homework to do. Toodles.
2006-09-20 [Morrigon]: I've donated some of my money to good artists whom I feel deserve it, not to some crazy weirdo hehe.
2006-09-22 [Rondel]: [A R I] definitely offers an interesting page, with a glimpse into the effectiveness of one of Rush Limbaugh's techniques for lying -- start with a truth, segue into a partial lie, and build the lie on that foundation. *rolls eyes* Very weird stuff, with just enough truth mixed in to confuse the unstable and/or easily confused.
2006-09-23 [Catlover]: The vampyromaniax couple - I was wondering, what effect would that actually have on them? Any? None? Beyond the fatc, of course, that they're losing blood - but presumably not enough to damage a healthy (physically, obviously, not mentally!) adult?
Just curiosity!
2006-09-23 [Rondel]: Umm -- blood-borne illnesses? Ring a bell? There are a lot of nasties that can easily be transmitted that way. I believe that there are other concerns as well, but right at the moment, that's the first one that comes to mind. Safe sex is hard enough, but there's no such thing in heaven, earth, or hell as safe blood drinking.
2006-09-23 [Morrigon]: Guh, I've heard some sad stories about vampires. Nothing to do with drinking blood really. Some kids claim they are vampires yet they are a special kind of vampires meaning: They don't drink blood, they can go out in the daylight, and they can eat whatever they want, they just make themselves pale and wear eyeliner. Yet they claim that they are vampires,
and what's even more irritating, they keep asking me if I'm one of them. I've even had people beg me to "turn them". Gah...
2006-09-24 [Rondel]: *shudder* Eww. It must feel like you've "stepped in something".
2006-09-24 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Acutally, Dela wrote a great rant about how by definition, SHE was a vampire. It's on Playgans somewhere, she says it way better than I ever could. 'twas silly!
2006-09-24 [Morrigon]: Heheh it's so bizzare the whole vampire fantasy online world thing. One guy told me he was a human doner and if I wanted and would tell him where to meet me he would come and let me drink from him. my response was "what the hell, this is online, I never said I was a vampire, what are you thinking? Do you think I'm stupid enough to want to visit a crazy wreck like you?
2006-09-24 [Morrigon]: And it is gross, something about it seems very gross. I honestly don't see why people think I'm a vampire, I have never...EVER said I was one. I don't even role play that I'm a vampire.
2006-09-24 [Catlover]: Blurgh... yep, that was a stupid question, wasn't it? So it IS dangerous as well as just purely stupid.
2006-09-24 [Rondel]: I used to roleplay in a vampire LARP, and to be honest, I enjoyed it -- until I found out that some of the other players were involved in the blood drinking scene (as in, witnessed drinking one another's blood out of wineglasses at a party). After that, I quit. As a game, a fantasy, a piece of fictional entertainment, the concept can be fun (and a heck of an excuse for good costuming). :) As a "reality", it's more like a HECK of a way to screw up your life and your sanity. And yes, icky. I may write about some twisted characters (as does almost any author who doesn't write pablum), but it doesn't mean I want to BE them!!! Okay, I'm pale, anemic, intolerant to sunlight (currently exacerbated by a course of tetracycline, with which the instructions specifically warn about sun exposure), and default all too easily into nocturnal habits, especially during the heat of summer. And my canines are oversized compared to the rest of the teeth in my mouth. But that no more makes me a vampire than the fact that I was born and grew up (as a young child) in Roswell, New Mexico, makes me a freakin' ALIEN! CRIPES, people, get a sense of reality! *rant, rant, slaver, slaver* Okay, I'm better now, but honestly, that kind of stuff irritates me greatly -- and the PRESUMPTION involved in saying "I'm a human donor, why not come meet my crazy ass so I can feed you every germ floating around in my body, and infect you with whatever crap I happen to have exposed myself to, in the course of my insane little life"... !!! I'm so sorry you were subjected to that.
[Catlover], I didn't mean to be patronizing. I just find the whole thing appallingly disturbing.
Oh yeah, and I love eating and drinking blood -- in food. Red-eye gravy? Mmmm... ...yummy! I like drippings -- doesn't make me a vampire. People are too busy looking for bizarre explanations for the obvious.
2006-09-24 [Fireblade K'Chona]: I don't believe I've ever had blood in food. Hm. I'm open to trying it, though; I eat pretty much anything. Except pineapple. Pineapple makes me gag. I hate the stuff.
Also, did I ever mention the person I met at camp who was, like, 14 and had an imaginary friend named Paul, who she said turned lights on and off in her house, stole her stuff, occasionally beat her up, and who she could see? I kind of just...humored her for the rest of camp. I think I did mention her.
2006-09-24 [Morrigon]: Yeah I think I remember hearing about that, but you didn't tell me he beat her up and stuff. hehehe,I had a friend like that too, she'd always say the scratches on here were from ghosts but we played in the yard and got scratched up a lot. it wasnt like she was abused, she just wanted attention.
and how can you hate pineapple??!?! hehehe I like it. I've heard of blood being served with alchohol but it's supposed to be sort of good for you. I dont know if I'd do it but hey, who knows.
2006-09-25 [Rondel]: Ever had a hamburger, with drippings on it? You know, that extra salty yummy stuff you get when you barbecue it, or panfry it, that goes from kind of jelly consistency to almost crusted onto the pan/grill? That's blood. If you eat it, you've eaten blood in food. Ditto for many kinds of sausages. It's rather hard NOT to eat the stuff, if you eat meat, come to think of it -- ALL meat "drippings" are blood.
I think you mentioned your campmate, at once point, [Fireblade K'Chona] -- want me to add her to the list? I think [Morrigon] is right, you didn't include some of those details last time, she'd definitely qualify with that description...
Oh, and on the subject of eating blood, one caveat -- Kosher meats are generally pretty well drained of the stuff, it's part of the requirements. There are proscriptions against eating blood.
Now I'm craving carpaccio de Venezia, like they served on my honeymoon cruise -- yum, raw beef, sliced paper thin! With this luscious dressing (a mustardy thing) and pine nuts! (They sear the very outside for hygiene reasons, but I'd still only have it in a top-quality restaurant, or made at home where I know exactly what hygiene measures have been taken).
Nope, I'm not a vampire, just a carnivore. Though with the way my hair growth went weird from one of my hormone swings, some of the freaky people might have guessed werewolf, instead -- and I'm not that either. Garlic is my FRIEND! :D Not so fond of silver, though -- and guess what, crazy people? That STILL doesn't mean anything other than that I am a quirky and individualisti
2006-09-26 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Oh, so THAT'S what that stuff it! I just kinda assumed it was some sort of fat or something. Mmmmm. ^_^
And go ahead and add her; here, I'll make a little thing for her. Her name is a fake name, however, Paul is what she called her, er, imaginary friend.
Melissa: When her best friend moved away, she said her friend left her imaginary friend Paul behind...and that he appeared in her room and punched her in the face. She claims he steals her stuff, occasionally hits her, and flickers lights on and off, and also that she can see him.
You can add a little more if you like. As for the raw beef-I've never had that, but I quite liked the seared tuna I had a few weeks ago at a sushi joint, it was very tasty!
Werewolves don't have a problem with garlic, by the way, just silver. Still, I'm mildly allergic to silver myself (I can't really wear silver earrings for long periods of time, though rings and such are fine) and I'm pretty sure I'd know if I were a werewolf. :P
2006-09-26 [Rondel]: And if you "deglaze" a pan with liquid after cooking meat in it, the resultant liquid is made by the liquid putting the blood into solution; if you don't do anything further to it, it's called "redeye gravy". If you add other stuff, like butter, flour, and milk, you've got a standard gravy. So, same goes if you've eaten gravy -- blood, yum! Ditto any "meat juices" that are not clear, but instead brown or reddish.
I'm sure that SOME of the legends speak of werewolves and garlic -- I just can't remember any source further back than Christopher Stasheff's The Warlock Insane. (I think that's the book -- it's one of those in that series, though.)
And I'll add "Melissa". *rolls eyes* Oy.
2006-09-26 [Fireblade K'Chona]: -sigh- She was quite a nice girl otherwise. It's just...
-shakes head-
2006-09-26 [Rondel]: I know -- a few of those on this page were sweet, fun, or funny people, and good friends, including at least one or two whom I'd be glad and proud to have at my side or back in a crisis -- but they are unfortunately outnumbered by those who were increasingly cracked, and at least equal in number to those who were like walking nightmares you couldn't wake up from.
But I think it's important to remember that these folks come in that whole range of types, and not say "well, they're too nice to be a nutjob" -- especially if their condition is progressive.
The scary crazies are bad enough, but at least with them, you know what you're dealing with -- the progressive ones can slide under a person's radar, if they're not careful, because it's easy to go on dismissing a person's problem as minor and harmless, when it's really progressing to the point where a person may be becoming a danger to hirself or others -- at very least in a nonphysical way, destroying relationships and causing great emotional harm, and in some cases worse, causing financial ruin, or even physical danger.
The kindergarten teacher above, for instance, would never CHOOSE to harm a child, IMHO -- but she'd have no problem risking their harm at the hands of bullies, or in playing unsupervised, because the former would be "their karma", and the latter "wouldn't happen because their angels are watching over them". I know a child who has permanent (or at least lasting) injuries from spending only a few weeks in this woman's care. *sigh*
I guess my stance is that it's better to be cognizant that you're dealing with a nut, of whatever type, even if they're a VERY nice person, so that you can take it into account when deciding what trusts you place in them.
It needn't prevent a friendship or working relationship, necessarily, if one deems that the risk factors and the nature of the relationship don't overlap -- but having that awareness that the person is nutty can help one avoid relaxing one's guard and drifting from a low-risk relationship with the person, into a high-risk one -- and getting someone hurt as a result. As much as it hurts to suffer as the result of misplaced trust, it's ever so much worse to watch a loved one suffer from one's own mistake about whom to trust in which ways.
2006-09-26 [Rondel]: There, [Fireblade K'Chona], I've added "Melissa" -- but I changed the pseudonym, to one in keeping with the page theme; please let me know if this is unacceptable. I don't wish to offend.
2006-09-26 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Oh, that's clever-I don't mind at all!
2006-10-25 [The Blood Angel]: I've never been so freaked out in my life! Holy mother of god!
2009-04-12 [Fireblade K'Chona]: Something rather disturbing that I read about recently-Culle
http://www.exa
It's...well, hard to say anything more than what's already there, really. It's Twilight fans going another step into crazyland. I mean, I don't have anything against the books except that they're kind of appallingly written and the characters set a bad example. But that's hardly a crime. I have a few more issues with the fact that Stephanie Meyer donated Twilight proceeds to Prop 8. But the fans...yeesh. (I have read the first two Twilight books, and that's a few days I'll never get back.)
My vampire book is and always will be Sunshine by Robin McKinley. Her vampires are scary as hell and I would never, ever want to meet one because THEY EAT HUMANS. They do not sparkle. Nor do they form any kind of relationships with humans unless there's pretty extreme circumstances (read: life-debt) involved. Those are vampires. The ones you wouldn't ever want to meet. (I wouldn't want to meet the Cullens either, mind, but that's because I think they are STUPID.)
I think I might go write a diary rant about this.
2009-04-13 [Azuri]: Holy fuck shit damn......
I think my brain just exploded in disbelief
2009-04-13 [Morrigon]: The power of hormonal psycho people! YAY
I am not saying this out of rebellious blind hatred towards anything mainstream... But the actor who plays Edward looks like he has a caveman forehead to me. Am I alone in this one?
2009-04-13 [Morrigon]: And these turds don't realize is that there is something spiritual to be had from nearly everything! Take it easy, learn some lessons, it doesn't mean you have to start a religion about it!
2009-04-13 [Azuri]: Lol I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought he was ugly as hell XD Someone also needs to introduce him to a hairbrush I don't think hes ever seen one in his life!
2009-04-13 [Morrigon]: Just sticks his head out the window on the drive to work ^.^
2009-04-23 [BarleySinger]: mostly fantasy crazies they just wind up hurting themselves socially by claiming impossible things, and most people laugh at them for it (possibly even creeping people out). However there can be be more to it (far too often more to it).
I know of several murders that count as having been done by people who claimed to be *ever so extra special* (fantasy crazies).
This includes a woman who claimed to be a vampire, and killed a father of 5 kids with a butcher knife in order to drink his blood.
It also counts for a guy who was totally obsessed with two things:
1) all things 'NINJA'
2) a young woman who lived in the same building he lived in (the building was owned by a relative of the young lady).
He decapitated the girl and then called a friend to ask what to do with the body. WHAT THE HELL!!! This is *N*O*T* some game show and we do not get to "Phone a Friend".
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